Theme: Society Prus 26-10-2009 nr 007
It is another greatest nonsense
It is another greatest nonsense that "the Germans eliminated Prussians". The author of this silly statement was Karl Marx. What Germans? The knights? They took German peasants with trains to cultivate soil and to produce bread instead of "murdered Prussians"? Who were 8000 soldiers killed in the battle of Grunwald against Poles and Lithuanians? Were they resurrected Prussians? Did Lutherans annihilate Prussians after they began teach priests Prussian and published Luther's Catechism for this aim in 1561? What was the reason for this if the Prussians had been already "eliminated"? When then if the Prussians were "eliminated"? I think this was after 1945 only.
I also wrote that the state of the German Order was not any Germany but an independent Baltic State in which Prussians, earlier several West Baltic tribes, first understood themselves as one nation with one name. Nobody says that the German Order wanted to "preserve Prussian nation and language". This was not the age of capitalism with its comprehension of nationality and culture. There was a comprehension of the authorities and the people. The same or similar Knight Order existed in Estonia and Latvia. Why were not Estonians and Latvians "eliminated"?
Prussian self-determnation existed till 1945, only Old Prussian language was substituted with German, Lithuanian and Polish. This occured exclusively due to the defeat of the Prussian State at Grunwald when free Prussians began either either to be sold to serfdom for the debts of the state, or escaped in towns as Germans, most of the Prussian-speaking serfs further dying out due to the pest of 1709-1711. However the population remained mixed with overhelmng Baltic element.
Of course, they were genetically mixed, and the percentage of Old Prussian genes probably was no more than 50 %. However each nation is mixed and I doubt that the percentage of Old Germans in today Germany may even near to 50 %. Half of today Germans are genetic Slavs with a growing percentage of Turkish etc. component. No less than one million today Germans are of Baltic Prussian origin.
The main thing is cultural tradition and self determination. The cultural tradition in the land of Prussians before Yalta was Baltic except big towns, however self-determination was not German (except big towns and except Nazi period), but Prussian.
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 006
Prusian society, Greg's friend from NY
To jest zawsze dobre, by omówić zagadnienia. Dobra debata podobna do Starożytni Grecy są przestrzegane formy nauczania. Ale pamiętaj, nie walczyć! (Jestem nauczycielem w szkole podstawowej w Nowym Jorku).
Choć nie jestem językoznawcą i historyk, mocno wierzę, że Bałtyk ludzi i języki bałtyckie są różne grupy etniczne i językowe. Ale jak języków indoeuropejskich, mają wspólnego przodka w pre przeszłości historycznej, podobnie jak francuski, niemiecki i sanskryt z Indii, matka wszystkich języków indo-europejskich, mają wspólnego przodka. Jednak osoba ta nie może opisać francuski i niemiecki jako samego języka. Tylko język Basków od Hiszpanii i Francji, wypowiedziane przez Basków w Pireneje mówią językiem, który nie jest indoeuropejskich. Proszę zobaczyć na mapie. Choć małe, języki bałtyckie są koloru żółtego i wymienione są oddzielnie od języków słowiańskich. (ale pamiętaj, ZWYKLE prawda jest gdzieś w środku).
Pokój John (Jan)
It is always a good thing to discuss topics. A good debate similar to the Ancient Greeks is a respected form of learning.
But remember, no fighting! (I am a teacher in an Elementary school in New York City).
Although I am not a linguist or historian, I firmly believe that the Baltic people and Baltic languages are distinct ethnic and linguistic group. BUT as Indo-European languages, they share a common ancestor in the pre historic past, just as french,German and Sanskrit from India share a common ancestor. However, A person cannot describe French and German as the same language. Only The Basque language from Spain and France, spoken by the Basque people in the Pyrenees Mountains speak a language that is not Indo-European. Please see this map. Although small, Baltic languages are the color yellow, and are listed separately from Slavic languages. (but remember, the truth USUALLY is somewhere in the middle).
John Strynkowski (Stre,kowski)
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 005
Where is your Prussia? You don't live in Prussia, You live in slavic land, near Warsaw. It's very ungentle to decide who can and who cannot live in Prussia, especially even not paying taxes in Prussia. If saying "my Prussia" You understand the neigbourghood of Warsaw, stay there, slavize Your prussian language to be understable by other great prussians - Lech Walesa be Karol Wojtyla. Yes, they really couldn't understand our baltic language.
The most important for me is to be understable by prussians - I know foreign languages to speak with others. It's better to learn languages as they are, than creating new, frankenstein languages, taking polish words, prussian endings and english-like gramatic.
Let us Our Fuhrer live in our land, please dont ask us what we do here.
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 004
I'am confused :
from the same e-mail adress I get the letters signed by Letas or mix, Mikkels.
so if Mikkels has problems with his identity he must rest in Druskienniki or Palanga instead to treat other people as historical ignorants.
They were very close relation between Prussian language and slavic languages, polish, belarussian, russian...
From Prussian Language rest only a litle bit more than 2000 original words,
So where to find other words, missing for the basic comunication ?.
I compared the similary sounding words used by Lithuanians, Latvians and Poles in the oldest dictionaries,
expecting than is very big chance that Prussians used this words too.
I get from Mikkels the following answer :
"First Prussan is NOT Lithuanian, it is ANOTHER language.
Secondly, there were a lot of Polish and Belorussian barbarisms in Lithuanian. Thanks to good linguists Lithuanians removed them from literary language.
So I ask him again :
What are you doing in my Prussia ?,
if for you the common part of polish-lithuanian history was barbarisme.
And now, in todays times without Karol Wojtyla and Lech Walesa you would speak russian till end of your life.
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 003
Letas with all respects
"Letas with all respects, you are a dreamer. Prus land and Prus people were destroyed by the end of XIII century, and after that only romantics could dream about Prusia."
Dear Slawek - not far since now You were such a romantic speaking about prussian contribution in Grunwald battle. From historical sources we know about the ritual of kriwis Waltin Supplit on Semba coast - the sign of strong baltic culture in XVI century, despite of three centuries of racist policy of german (or, catholic, doesnt matter) order. Prussian language was spoken until the begining of XVIII century.
Yes, you are right though not completely I am not romantic. Very proud to be descendant of Ancient Prusians and for many reasons. Also I am not a historian, neither hobby of mine is a culture. Rest you can interpret yourself, but definitely I will make every effort that truth about Prusians will come to light. After the battle of Grunwald and the Thirteen years war, yes, there was a chance to re-construct a multi national State of Prusia. Shortly, it all has gone. If you want to achieve something, you have to fight for it. I am doing that single handed, you are welcome, but on my terms. I respect all of you, Prusian descendants.
God bless you all of you, who are trying to recover prusian language, culture, history. All what you are doing is for your own satisfaction. That is not enough to my satisfaction. The real history of Prusia must come to a respect in Europe.
Prussian baltiskan identity has been alive in dispersed form to present days.
The areas south-east from Vilnius was settled by prussians escaping after crusaders attack. There is an
interesting article about living prussian identity in this area:
(unfortunatelly only in polish) .
A lot of people from this mailing list define their nationality as baltic prussian. Please, don't say I'm dead - my blood is still flowing, my mouth still speak in baltic prussian.
Regards Slav Klec Pilewski
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 002
Letas Palmaitis, Sławek
it is a nonsense to say, "the Germans" stole the name "Prussians".
We finally found a difference, I am speaking as an Ancient Prusian. It is correct, that Germans first eliminated Prusians and after that appropriated their identity. Letas do not discuss with me this subject. This is was not history this was a crime and only on crime basis we can discuss.
There was a Prussian state, independent from German states, created by the German Order in the land of Baltic Prussians. OK, this was an aggression, however not of a German nation but of so-called German Order, which was a division of the Catholic Church. After wars against Prussians, this Order was "internationalized" in its turn, only the language was still German.
There were many German state. Until Bismarck times they even did not understand each other. Letas you are short sighted. Did they really speak old Prusian language? Prus land became a conflict between German attempt of possessing Baltic coast and the attempt of establishing a church state by Popes.
Afterwards this state became Lutheran, again independent from any German country. This state, in which the German language was official, however other languages was not oppressed (on the contrary, the Lutheranism demanded preaching in native language, therefore local non-German cultures began to develop, the state was the first tolerant to such a degree in Europe), this state was named Prussia according to its real name, was this bad?
Yes , it is very bad. Now everybody knows about German Prussia. It will take long time to pass the knowledge about Ancient Prusians. During last 60-ty years has been done more by Polish historians and people like you, than during 600 years by Germans.
Even after personal union with German Brandenburg, and even later, when the Brandenburg-Prussian Kingdom arose, the name remained and was broaden to the whole Kingdom - was that bad? Who stole the name? All local peoples, not only Germans, but also descendants of Baltic Prussians, Lithuanians, Poles etc. - they all named themselves Prussians. You see, Lithuanians "stole" the name! Poles "stole" the name!
The others did not have a choice. Letas I hope you are joking, you forget about a German solution.
Quite a new development was after Napoleon's wars when the liberation of German states began from the Kingdom of Prussia (because Napoleon was driven from the East to the West). This was time when the German militarism born defeating French militarism. The best generals were those from the Kingdom of Prussia, they were Germans from Brandenburg. They used a historical possibility to broaden the Kingdom by adjoining other German states to their Kingdom with a historical true name Prussia. Thus "Prussia" became spread on Germany. The Kingdom of Prussia helped the Germans to unite their lands. However later its territory diminished to Brandenburg + Baltic Prussia again. When the German Empire arose, it was not named "Prussia". Nothing was stolen, Prussia remained on its historic place.
Historically have no choice as history is already written. Since my earliest age , knowledge about Prussians meant something disgusting non comparable that bad. I know that Germans who have Prusian blood in their veins they are very proud, but they should know that their ancestors have that blood on their hands.
However not Germans, but Americans and Englishmen together with Russians in Yalta decided to destroy historic Prussia. They punished Baltic Prussia for the German militarism but they preserved German Brandenburg! Today Brandenburg still exists but where is Prussia?
As for the name Prusai, your explanation does not correspond to current views. Similarity of sounds says nothing about origins.
Letas with all respects, you are a dreamer. Prus land and Prus people were destroyed by the end of XIII century, and after that only romantics could dream about Prusia. I specially write Prusia with single S as to differ from Germans.
For more scientific items see http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian
Slav Klec Pilewski
Theme: Society Prus 25-10-2009 nr 001
Well Dear Mr Piliewski,
I am honored to be a part of the Prus Society. I am VERY proud of my Prus heritage, and I would like to Help in any way I can...such as translation, or perhaps research or inviting other members to join by using their haplogroup or surname which I would find on y search or Family tree DNA, I have recently joined DNA forums.org and I have posted a letter, as well as the adress for your website about prussians. I live in New York City which had an incredibly worlds wide library system, so maybe I can help your research.This is the letter I posted. Please tell me know of any mistakes.
"Hi. Who were the Ancient Baltic Prussians? Many South Baltic/Polish/Lithuanian peoples alive today are descended from these great peoples. "The name Prusia is probably derived from sanscrit “pursuah” meaning people. Around the year 1075 Adam of Bremen wrote about the Prusians as “Homines Humanissimi” - the most humanitarian of people." One of the last pagan tribe in Europe, these people are known as today as Prussians, Sudovians, Yatavigian/Yatvigian/Jatavigians as well as many others names. These peaceful amber traders were neither Germanic nor Slavic. They are most closely related to Finnish/Baltic People. They lived along the Baltic for over 10,000 years, about 8,000 years prior to the arrival of the Slavic tribes!!! After the last crusade in the 13th century, German Teutonic Knights, under the guise of converting the Prussian tribes to Christianity, systematically invaded the Old Prussian lands along the Baltic. They killed, raped, burned, pillaged, confiscated land and enslaved these old Prussian tribes, then converted to then to Christianity "by the sword". Even after conversion, the Teutonic Knights continued to treat the Christian Prussians as slaves and second class citizens. They then stole and Germanized our rightful Prussian name and used it as their own until WW2!! Those Prussians with the means (money) or luck escaped south and east. Many people today along the Baltic, in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Kalingrad/St Petersburg areas are descended from assimilated Prussians refuges. In fact, the King of Poland granted shelter to many Prussians, who were able to retain their Prussian identity for many generations. Many of these Prussians were granted noble or knightly status. These clans, or more correctly called Herb or Herbi or Herbum in Polish and Lithuanian, are considered noblity. The 3 Prussian noble clans are herb Prus 1 (I), h. Prus 2 (II) and h. Prus 3 (III). These clans, considered aristocratic, were typically knights with land, villages and serfs. (Szlacha or Polish nobility made up 10% of the Polish population prior to the Polish partitions c.1790, the largest percentage of nobility in Europe). If you go to Wikipedia and search szlachta, Polish Nobility, or Herb/Herbi, or to the websites listed below, you will find more information about Polish Nobility, and the Teutonic annialation of the Prussian People and culture. There you will find a list of hundreds of Polish and Lithuanian names of Prussian Noble origin. If your name appears there, chances are you may be of Prussian heritage. Over the years, these Polish Lithuanian Prussians assimilated within their host communities becoming "Polish", although today their heriage "lives" in the genes of about 2 milliom Poles and other Northern Europeans. A few famous Poles of Prussian heritage are the author Boleslaw Prus, and Madame Curie. The majority of these assimilated Prussians seem to be of Haplogroup R1a1, N and subclad N1C1 (me), but other haplogroups also appear at a lower rate. Through the Prussian group called Prussian/Yatvigian on Ysearch, the Prussian Society and this forum, we are trying to piece together our lost heritage, and trace the dispora of the Prussian people. Our ultimate goal is to be recognized as a people and gain our rightful place in history, through genetics, family surnames research, and recognition by the European Parliment of our heritage. Please check it out!!! http://prusowie.pl/g...prussian-en.php (list of Prus I, Prus II and Prus III names), http://prusowie.pl/index-en.php, (Home page of Prussian website). " Run by Mr. Piliezski
Thanks again for all the important and good work you do. I can see that you spend many hours devoted to this project, and, again, I thank you. I will be in Wawsaw july, 2010, perhaps we can meet and talk further. Your's trully, John h. Prus III Strynkowski (Strekowski)
Membership of The Society Prus is honorary. The members can recommend a new member.
Recommendation plus right idea for knowledge revitalisation of Ancient Prusians is
sufficient to become a registered member of the Society.
There is no intention of money collection from its members. We can have a situation when members
will be requested for money collection for a definite purpose, as determined in our
regulation. Your case John is a simple one you are a member. Regards Slav Klec Pilewski
part of your letter I am sending to Slawek Pilewski. Slawek is the most competent person in this case.
1. I discovered that you and other people organized The Prus Society. This is great news.
I definitely would like to be a > member of the Prus Society.